Republic Arena

We can't go around removing pila I don't think. Every faction (or like 95%) has javelins, and while they are an effective counter to elephants and chariots, that doesn't mean they should be removed. The primary reason for this is that without pila, factions are forced to take javelin units (let's be honest, archers not really a strong counter), which fill unit space ONLY to counter one opposing unit. Especially considering that units have only two javelins and can't fire them while fighting means that it just takes skill to move your elephants or chariots in at the right time.

It's pretty much a guarantee that in barb vs any elephant faction are still bringing max amount of infantry, but not allowing the use of javelins, and therefore forcing the barbarian player to bring extra missile units, will lower the quality of the infantry. This is already creating many problems for the barbarian player. I think the battle is already even because of the limit on melee inf and 4 max same unit. An armored elephant is already the most powerful single unit in the game if used correctly so the threat of bringing one doesn't need to further weaken the opposing army.

i just read the rules and i think banning barb spear. javellines is a really bad idea (terrible actually):
why not just ban levyfreemen as a unit and other cheap spears with precursors ...
(i get it they are OP for their value so it is fine by me)

because it doesn´t make sense if i buy 650-850 gold unit of elite barb spears and cannot use their precursors , they are loosing 1/3 of their combat value right there .

not to mention : can you imagine all those fights between players after the game :
one will (maybe just accidentally release a precursor volley and even if he is already winning and that change nothing the other player will see the chance for a rematch and will be crying about it)

i mena these tournaments already have a lot of arguing and fights about silly things between players and this will be a disaster (trust me)

(11-24-2016, 01:44 PM)Hamilkar Barca Wrote: [ -> ]We can't go around removing pila I don't think. Every faction (or like 95%) has javelins, and while they are an effective counter to elephants and chariots, that doesn't mean they should be removed. The primary reason for this is that without pila, factions are forced to take javelin units (let's be honest, archers not really a strong counter), which fill unit space ONLY to counter one opposing unit. Especially considering that units have only two javelins and can't fire them while fighting means that it just takes skill to move your elephants or chariots in at the right time.

It's pretty much a guarantee that in barb vs any elephant faction are still bringing max amount of infantry, but not allowing the use of javelins, and therefore forcing the barbarian player to bring extra missile units, will lower the quality of the infantry. This is already creating many problems for the barbarian player. I think the battle is already even because of the limit on melee inf and 4 max same unit. An armored elephant is already the most powerful single unit in the game if used correctly so the threat of bringing one doesn't need to further weaken the opposing army.

Why then Getae and Odrysian kingdom can play without pila ??? Rome hasn't also spears with jav but they are still very strong. Barbarian factions have the best melee inf, very good and also very cheap slingers. Very strong and the best cav for 700 (heavy horse). In that case removing pila is just great idea coz barbarian are too strong for other factions.

(11-24-2016, 02:04 PM)darkglobe Wrote: [ -> ]i just read the rules and i think banning barb spear. javellines is a really bad idea (terrible actually):
why not just ban levyfreemen as a unit and other cheap spears with precursors ...
(i get it they are OP for their value so it is fine by me)

because it doesn´t make sense if i buy 650-850 gold unit of elite barb spears and cannot use their precursors , they are loosing 1/3 of their combat value right there .

not to mention : can you imagine all those fights between players after the game :
one will (maybe just accidentally release a precursor volley and even if he is already winning and that change nothing the other player will see the chance for a rematch and will be crying about it)

i mena these tournaments already have a lot of arguing and fights about silly things between players and this will be a disaster (trust me)

Same question for u. Why Getae and Odrysian kingdom are strong even if their spears haven't jav. Why???

well rome is not really a good example : they have even better meatshields (hastati) ,
yeah they are more expensive but they can actually kill enemy cheap spears or support
more expensive units in the fight ...

yeah that is actually my main problem with getae
when it comes to their cheap units not having precursors
but they can at least field some HA ...

my point is this will only create more chaos a nd more fighting and arguing between players ...
and you nerfed a barb factions enough already with max 5 melee rule
(you dont have to totally criple them) ...

barca has a an interesting point. I didn't see max 5 Melee infantry. I think max 5 Melee infantry punishes barbs faction.
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копейщикам дороже 400 монет нужно вернуть право на пилумы)
я это говорил уже давно,дешманские копья уже будут не опасны слонам и ударке,а юниит за 400 монет для копейщика это уже норм цена и почему он не может кинуть пилум?)

barb players are screwed

just ban the levyfreemen and leave the rest of the units alone ...

my point is ... if i decide to pay 400+ for a spear unit
(it is my decition and i have some bigger plans for them then just hurt some cav unit or absorbing the charge and die ,
i actually want them to do something before they die ) ...

with this rule you will just hurt the gameplay , you will create confusion and silly fights between players ...

borislav: that would be right exept in this tournie you will get the random faction selected for you ...
so you cannot just say we are just barb advocates here , because in the end i can hurt my own chances
if i end up with say pontos against all those barb factions ...

(11-24-2016, 03:44 PM)darkglobe Wrote: [ -> ]well rome is not really a good example : they have even better

Wrong. With 5-6 melee limit they do not have luxury to use melee-slots for meatshield units. So no they do not have better meatshield than barbs but they are still more than capable of destroying any non-barb faction.

The ONLY issue with disabling precursors on spears is problem with enforcing this rule.
2 options:
- use my mod that removes pilas from barb units but a lot of players hate using any mods
- put responsibility on players to disable fire-at-will on spears but it might cause a lot of incedents when player forgets to do so or re-enables this ability in the middle of the battle

Как я себе представляю ЧР:

(11-24-2016, 03:44 PM)darkglobe Wrote: [ -> ]well rome is not really a good example : they have even better meatshields (hastati) ,
yeah they are more expensive but they can actually kill enemy cheap spears or support
more expensive units in the fight ...

yeah that is actually my main problem with getae
when it comes to their cheap units not having precursors
but they can at least field some HA ...

my point is this will only create more chaos a nd more fighting and arguing between players ...
and you nerfed a barb factions enough already with max 5 melee rule
(you dont have to totally criple them) ...

Hastati? WTF? U can't take hastati they are swords not spears. If u take 4 hastati u can take max 2 heavy inf. but nobody takes hastati with rules max 8-6 melee inf. so u have to take 6 heavy swords inf and also 4 spears without jav. So that's very good example. And i saw many battles where Getae whithout any HA won vs Arverni or Suebi. So it doesen't matter or they have HA or not. They are just very strong aven if they never had spears with jav. So that's the proof that other barbarian factions are still very stong also without spears with jav. I played with this rules and i didn't notice that barbarian are weak without jav spears. Arverni and Suebi are still very strong.

The only advantage that gives this prohibition is that it becomes much easier for the Greeks, Diadochi and the eastern factions to play with their cavalry and special units like: elephant or chariot.

(11-24-2016, 04:44 PM)monstr_ork Wrote: [ -> ]Как я себе представляю ЧР:

Если бы все было так просто....

yeah you are right , i forgot about max 5 melee rule when i wrote that ,
but still , rome has the best mid-tier infantry in the game and
they can just use 200 denari vigiles as a meatshields ...
or leves even , whom actually have javellines and cost the same .


anyway i really think this rule is not a good idea
(as you said most players won´t use mods , and i guarantee there will be "accidents"
about throwing a pilas and the other players babycrying over it and demanding the rematch ,
so in the end you will just create the nightmare for yourself as admins and organizators because you will have to solve all those "issues")

why not ban javelins for spears under 500-600 cost?

(11-24-2016, 04:46 PM)Wolf of ichkeria Wrote: [ -> ]The only advantage that gives this prohibition is that it becomes much easier for the Greeks, Diadochi and the eastern factions to play with their cavalry and special units like: elephant or chariot.

yeah in fact it would be all too easy for them under those rules:
barbs would actually become a big underdogs in such fights
(if we take max 5 melee into account as well)
so say boii would field 4 sword followers and oath. general , and that´s it ,
they are f..cked (they cannot field levyfreemen , or any other spear unit ,
well yeah they can but the "eunuchs" versions of them ,
heavy horse is not gonna help against cappadotian or any other decent eastern cav)
what else can they do against eastern factions which will field catas and HAs and ,
chariots and eles and dont have to fear any precursors from spears anymore ???

and greeks can just take thureos spears to throw javs
and hippeis lancers and cycle charge the barbs to oblivion ...

(11-24-2016, 05:05 PM)darkglobe Wrote: [ -> ]yeah in fact it would be all too easy for them under those rules:
barbs would actually become a big underdogs in such fights
(if we take max 5 melee into account as well)
so say boii would field 4 sword followers and oath. general , and that´s it ,
they are f..cked (they cannot field levyfreemen , or any other spear unit ,
well yeah they can but the "eunuchs" versions of them ,
heavy horse is not gonna help against cappadotian or any other decent eastern cav)
what else can they do against eastern factions which will field catas and HAs and ,
chariots and eles and dont have to fear any precursors from spears anymore ???

and greeks can just take thureos spears to throw javs
and hippeis lancers and cycle charge the barbs to oblivion ...

Barbarian swords will just eat any other swords of Greaks or estern factions. Right they have only 5 swords but they are still the best melee inf in this game. Take then 5 swords and some 4 spears for 490 or veteran spears 700 to hold greaks hoplites on your flanks until the inf killer barbarian swords are smashing the center. That's just a example.

And barbarian spears are still a big problem for greaks or estern factions coz they have anti cav bonus and tactics. So in that case barbarian have to take good archers for 450 to kill ele. And they also have 5 swords with jav. For example Odry hasn't any unit with pilu. But nobody is crying about that and that's really weird XD XD

Люди настолько охренели в риме 2, настолько уже привыкли с имба варварами тупо без каких маневров труда и пота выносить в лоб всех, что уже просто не хотят вообще не какие запреты на варваров принимать, что я просто в ахуе)

yeah counter cav tactics is nice ,
but if the spaghetti line spear unit without their jav is charged unbraced by catas
its game over for 1/3 - 1/4 of that unit
before they could do anything to harm them ,
and while they are knocked on the ground catas could still retreat maybe loosing 1--4 men
while expensive spearmen would lose 20-25 men 5 seconds after the charge impact ...

and even expensive barb spears can only hold for so long against something like veteran hoplites
or thorax hoplites supported with thracian warriors for example (if you play for athens)

besides you really do not want your barb spears to be wasted in grind out fights against greek hoplites , you buy them to fight cavalry , not another spears ...
because thats just make them cost effective in the first place ...