Discussion

[Mishelka]

Your questions / comments / concerns related to the tournament

[SPARTACUS]

Предлагаю Лузитанов, сделать как раньше в комплекте с Ареваками, а не как самостоятельную фракцию.

[Mishelka]

Ну лично мне не нравится идея. Фракции довольно разные. Делать пул фракций еще меньше тоже не весело. Правила на них очень щадящие. Кайтить/рашить ничто не мешает. Я в своих тестах смешной состав просто пробовал (я о лузитанах говорю. у ареваков все вообще норм)

[Hamilkar Barca]

I agree, it's also an advantage to choose. If you think Lusitani is too weak, it should be buffed or removed. If it's strong enough, it should be independent.

I'll just post my suggested changes here:

Everything: Max 6 same --> Max 5 same (exception: pergamon galatian sword can be 6 i guess). 6 same is ridiculously overpowered in some matchups (think: 6 slingers, 6 lancers... again, in SOME matchups this is too strong). Also this is mostly for the reserve factions, which should be weak anyway. It's REALLY BAD if a reserve faction is accidently too strong, since anyone can just swap to them.

Tylis and Suebi: Missile Cavalry: N+1 (min 2, max 4), where N = number of missile cav your opponent can take. If they are facing each other (or mirror), then max 3 javcav. Because of the melee restrictions, these factions already take 2-3 noble horse/riders so for many matchups ALSO having 4 javcav is too strong. They often need a missile cav advantage just to have additional cav, but 4 is sometimes too much.

Suebi: Max 5 sword masters + wodonaz, but sword masters count as 1.5 towards this count (so u can take 2 sword masters + 2 wodonaz, 3 wodonaz + 1 sword master, or 3 sword masters or 4 wodonaz)-- suebi is already way too strong and limiting their melee doesn't matter that much since they can just take wodonaz which is a huge spear melee advantage over other factions

Iceni: 4 same, 6 melee, 4 good swords. Brings them more in line with nervii arverni boii (4+2, 4+1, 3+2, respectively). 5 same is stupid because they are already a strong faction. 5+2 melee with no good sword restriction is obviously way stronger than the other barbs, when they already have good spears, decent cav (yes, weak to missiles, but for barb matchups not really a big problem), and better slingers than all the other barbs. Nervii, for example, is WAY weaker vs cav because their cav is medium and their units are all light and they dont have good spears (iceni has the vet spears which are great), but for some reason iceni gets a melee advantage as well.

Arevaci: 5+2 melee, but I'm ok keeping it as is, I guess, but allowing them insane midtier spam (6 midtiers + iberian) with 4 balearics, good spear support, and 5 decent- good cav seems too strong to me. They do have weaknesses (eg. to javcav) but 4 balearics is just insanely strong in most matchups. Giving them less midtier melee isn't going to affect their weakness to cav/javcav anyway but it will force balearics to get more value or to take elite swords. rn its just too easy to play very wide and just kill with slingers.

Ardiaei: Idk, I think it's fine, but you can maybe convince me of 13 melee

Another general comment is that I think full cav spam rush (if your faction can do it) is almost always the best option in the CoN, and I would like to hear suggestions to make this less forced as the strat to use. Last CoN we had some melee + shock cav max but it was already really high. I could see moving it from 7 -> 6? Does this really mess up some factions?

[ALUKARD_86]

Резервный пул не пополнится фракциями? Ардиеев можно в резерв на мой взгляд, так как у них очень серьезные проблемы с мечными фракциями.

[lda]

Проблема уменьшения привлекательности финала (и др. этапов) из-за повторяемости составов наций. Предлагается: начиная со второго этапа и по финал считать предыдущие матчи отыгранными в рассматриваемом этапе. Таким образом, при требуемых 5 победах максимальное число встреч между финалистами (или участниками промежуточных этапов) будет 9 матчей на протяжении всего турнира. Далее, матч №1 проходит по существующим лимитам. №2 для обоих участников лим. на пехоту увеличивается на (+1). №3 (+2). №4 (+3). №5 (+4). №6 пехота (+4), мечники (+1) для самого дешёвого. №7 пехота (+4), дешёвые мечники (+2). №8 пехота (+5). дешёвые мечники (+2). №9 пехота (+5), дешёвые мечники (+3). Можно использовать эту схему для начальных встреч, а затем вернуться к основным лимитам.

[Simplified]

I agree, it's also an advantage to choose. If you think Lusitani is too weak, it should be buffed or removed. If it's strong enough, it should be independent.

I'll just post my suggested changes here:

Everything: Max 6 same --> Max 5 same (exception: pergamon galatian sword can be 6 i guess). 6 same is ridiculously overpowered in some matchups (think: 6 slingers, 6 lancers... again, in SOME matchups this is too strong). Also this is mostly for the reserve factions, which should be weak anyway. It's REALLY BAD if a reserve faction is accidently too strong, since anyone can just swap to them.

Tylis and Suebi: Missile Cavalry: N+1 (min 2, max 4), where N = number of missile cav your opponent can take. If they are facing each other (or mirror), then max 3 javcav. Because of the melee restrictions, these factions already take 2-3 noble horse/riders so for many matchups ALSO having 4 javcav is too strong. They often need a missile cav advantage just to have additional cav, but 4 is sometimes too much.

Suebi: Max 5 sword masters + wodonaz, but sword masters count as 1.5 towards this count (so u can take 2 sword masters + 2 wodonaz, 3 wodonaz + 1 sword master, or 3 sword masters or 4 wodonaz)-- suebi is already way too strong and limiting their melee doesn't matter that much since they can just take wodonaz which is a huge spear melee advantage over other factions

Iceni: 4 same, 6 melee, 4 good swords. Brings them more in line with nervii arverni boii (4+2, 4+1, 3+2, respectively). 5 same is stupid because they are already a strong faction. 5+2 melee with no good sword restriction is obviously way stronger than the other barbs, when they already have good spears, decent cav (yes, weak to missiles, but for barb matchups not really a big problem), and better slingers than all the other barbs. Nervii, for example, is WAY weaker vs cav because their cav is medium and their units are all light and they dont have good spears (iceni has the vet spears which are great), but for some reason iceni gets a melee advantage as well.

Arevaci: 5+2 melee, but I'm ok keeping it as is, I guess, but allowing them insane midtier spam (6 midtiers + iberian) with 4 balearics, good spear support, and 5 decent- good cav seems too strong to me. They do have weaknesses (eg. to javcav) but 4 balearics is just insanely strong in most matchups. Giving them less midtier melee isn't going to affect their weakness to cav/javcav anyway but it will force balearics to get more value or to take elite swords. rn its just too easy to play very wide and just kill with slingers.

Ardiaei: Idk, I think it's fine, but you can maybe convince me of 13 melee

Another general comment is that I think full cav spam rush (if your faction can do it) is almost always the best option in the CoN, and I would like to hear suggestions to make this less forced as the strat to use. Last CoN we had some melee + shock cav max but it was already really high. I could see moving it from 7 -> 6? Does this really mess up some factions?

I think Lusitani should be removed or jointed with Arevaci again.

Agree with the max 6 same --> max 5 same

Is it possible BOTH or ONE of Tylis and Suebi can just get max 6 jav cav + noble riders/horse? I would miss some crazy builds that I took, but I can understand why that would be. I don't think Suebi having 3 jav cav against eastern would be the best for them though they have a gargantuan infantry advantage.

Absolutely agree with Suebi: Max 5 sword masters + wodonaz, but sword masters count as 1.5 towards this count

Iceni should 100% be 4 same, 6 melee. Maybe there's an argument to be made that it could be 5+1 with a Heroic Noble max or allow Painted Ones because Iceni has no good spear unit between levy free and chosen spear band like Arverni has with Spear Warriors, and their cav is weaker. The points about Nervii make sense though.

This could be a solution, but what about something like max 3 balearics? It's sort of a weird rule to propose I guess? Their mid tiers are weaker than other barbarians and they have to use spears to screen jav cav against a lot of factions.

I don't think Ardiaei should be 13 infantry, but I don't care that much about it.

I didn't mind max 7 melee cav + shock cav max. Interested to hear other peoples opinions on it.

[callmesoap]

I agree, it's also an advantage to choose. If you think Lusitani is too weak, it should be buffed or removed. If it's strong enough, it should be independent.

I'll just post my suggested changes here:

Everything: Max 6 same --> Max 5 same (exception: pergamon galatian sword can be 6 i guess). 6 same is ridiculously overpowered in some matchups (think: 6 slingers, 6 lancers... again, in SOME matchups this is too strong). Also this is mostly for the reserve factions, which should be weak anyway. It's REALLY BAD if a reserve faction is accidently too strong, since anyone can just swap to them.

Tylis and Suebi: Missile Cavalry: N+1 (min 2, max 4), where N = number of missile cav your opponent can take. If they are facing each other (or mirror), then max 3 javcav. Because of the melee restrictions, these factions already take 2-3 noble horse/riders so for many matchups ALSO having 4 javcav is too strong. They often need a missile cav advantage just to have additional cav, but 4 is sometimes too much.

Suebi: Max 5 sword masters + wodonaz, but sword masters count as 1.5 towards this count (so u can take 2 sword masters + 2 wodonaz, 3 wodonaz + 1 sword master, or 3 sword masters or 4 wodonaz)-- suebi is already way too strong and limiting their melee doesn't matter that much since they can just take wodonaz which is a huge spear melee advantage over other factions

Iceni: 4 same, 6 melee, 4 good swords. Brings them more in line with nervii arverni boii (4+2, 4+1, 3+2, respectively). 5 same is stupid because they are already a strong faction. 5+2 melee with no good sword restriction is obviously way stronger than the other barbs, when they already have good spears, decent cav (yes, weak to missiles, but for barb matchups not really a big problem), and better slingers than all the other barbs. Nervii, for example, is WAY weaker vs cav because their cav is medium and their units are all light and they dont have good spears (iceni has the vet spears which are great), but for some reason iceni gets a melee advantage as well.

Arevaci: 5+2 melee, but I'm ok keeping it as is, I guess, but allowing them insane midtier spam (6 midtiers + iberian) with 4 balearics, good spear support, and 5 decent- good cav seems too strong to me. They do have weaknesses (eg. to javcav) but 4 balearics is just insanely strong in most matchups. Giving them less midtier melee isn't going to affect their weakness to cav/javcav anyway but it will force balearics to get more value or to take elite swords. rn its just too easy to play very wide and just kill with slingers.

Ardiaei: Idk, I think it's fine, but you can maybe convince me of 13 melee

Another general comment is that I think full cav spam rush (if your faction can do it) is almost always the best option in the CoN, and I would like to hear suggestions to make this less forced as the strat to use. Last CoN we had some melee + shock cav max but it was already really high. I could see moving it from 7 -> 6? Does this really mess up some factions?

Then the Nabataea has max 2 camel archers,but camel archers is almost useless,is these two faction vs Nabataea should be use 2,or 3 missile cav?

[Hamilkar Barca]

I think that's fine, since that faction is very cav heavy, but I guess you could change it if needed (simple rule that factions with only camel archers don't count... I think that would just be naba)

[rifou]

I am not a fan of extra-complicated rules; the rules are intricate enough as it is imo.

Would the "max 6 jav cav + noble riders/horse" proposed by simplified work, instead of the match-up dependent rule? It would be more in line with existing rules (e.g. max 6 cata + parthian swords for parthia).

Is there a way to make the max swordmasters for suebi a round number? I don't have a good vision of the builds you are trying to avoid or allow, but would a simpler "max 4 sword masters and woodenaz" work, instead of the 1.5?

Also, I still don't quite understand why a no-cataphract saba cannot be allowed. Surely it can balanced by fine-tuning the number of maasgaat it gets?

[Hamilkar Barca]

no cata saba is just better naba i think, its doable, but kinda annoying (plus the camel HA which I guess u could ban but then saba is actually just too weak in some MU)

As always, the factions that are banned aren't necessarily banned because they're too strong, it's because they can't be balanced across all matchups well.

I mean maybe 5 noble horse + javcav could work but I think its more about limiting the javcav than it is the total cav. I'd pretty much always be taking 3-4 javcav and 2-1 noble horse as either faction.

[DIN]

Предлагаю 12 кавалерии + стрелков для Парфии вместо 11
Парфия теряет свою уникальность и силу если слишком урезать ее преимущества.
Например Армения имеет 12 кавалерии + стрелков при этом обладает лучшим выбором пехоты.

Предлагаю 4 хороших мечника для Галатии, чем они на столько сильней тех же Нервиев у которых ещё и 3 ha а у Галатии 2.

Предлагаю Набатею и Ардиеев отнести в резервный пул.
Лузитан объединить с Ареваками или отправить в резевный пул.

[ALUKARD_86]

По поводу Набатеи и Ардией согласен. Галатии достаточно дать 3 ха на мой взгляд. А вот насчет Парфии я не уверен, так как в отличии от Армении у Парфии более выгодный ценник для пехоты.

[callmesoap]

Why no one mentions a very strong Rome?

[Hamilkar Barca]

Rome is fine imo, less pila than barbs and worse cav

maybe 4 good swords 5 max sword

[lda]

Подскажите пожалуйста, можно ли принять участие, если discord не доступен? Спасибо.

[Bleks]

Подскажите пожалуйста, можно ли принять участие, если discord не доступен? Спасибо.

Да, конечно, можете присылать реплеи сыгранных игр в тему группы или в личку админу

[callmesoap]

Rome is fine imo, less pila than barbs and worse cav

maybe 4 good swords 5 max sword

I think it's fine

[callmesoap]

I found that many of the rules about 4 same max are duplicates, and the rules of Arevaci and Iceni are also wrong

[Bleks]

I found that many of the rules about 4 same max are duplicates, and the rules of Arevaci and Iceni are also wrong

What do you mean, its wrong?